problems with the trinity

If Jesus is God the whole Gospel is false. Your statement above is not a universal belief amongst those who follow the Trinity Doctrine. God increase in wisdom and stature with himself and man? If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the Gospel is a lie and God is a liar as well. Php 2:9  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name. Either way, if you think I lack knowledge, why not try to enlighten me instead of pushing me away? Some of the problems of the Trinity arise from confusion between the internal life and nature of the Trinity itself and the external life or "self-revelation" of God. But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. The fathers of the catholic church that developed trinitarian doctrine (Athanasius of Alexandria – it is interesting how he became a bishop) were steeped in Greek and Roman culture not Hebrew culture. What’s your point? For discussions about other religions, please fill out the contact form on the about page. It doesn’t say God gave himself it says he gave his only begotten son. ACTS 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. It’s a little unclear as to who sent the angel (Old Testament Prophet) to John, in Rev. Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (John 20:28) And, by the way, if Jesus were not God, he shouldn’t be called the first, last, beginning, ending, alpha and omega since God is the first and the last. ), 431: Ephesus (was Mary the bearer of Christ’s divine nature? Let’s admit up front that the doctrine of the Trinity “is difficult and perplexing to us” (Sproul 1995, p. 35). It means exactly what it says. What is meany be being equal to God is from an earlier exchange The Logical Problems of the Trinity Chapter 13. That would make Jesus’s resurrection false and a lie with no meaning at all. St. John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. St. John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Well, you started out by telling us we’re mixed up and then I replied by showing that we’re not the ones who are mixed up. Yeshua allowed Himself to be called the Messiah and that is what the word Christ really means. He didn’t have it any more because of the next point…. The Problem of the Trinity The Mystery The concept of the Trinity was first formulated by St. Augustine in the Nicene Creed in seven statements: 1. In Rev. The 'Logical Problem of the Trinity', due to Richard Cartwright (1987), consists of identifying the following elements of the doctrine of the Trinity and asking how they can all be consistent: (S1) The Father is God. There is another who is the mediator between man and God. In the Bible the term “God” with very few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father. The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the whole Gospel is a lie. I just knew it was Christian and as soon as I heard Holy Trinity I got up and walked out not because I’m so full of wisdom and I’m a smart guy because I’m not and when people claim that I am , I say no no I’m not it is the HOLY SPIRIT , given me the discernment !! How is that not simple. If it is god you have seen god.) Do you really want to let Pride get in the way of the truth? 1:1, with Rev. John 1: 1-5 is what’s referred to as a “sod” level scripture. Putting that aside, one has to understand why all of this came about. Trinitarian doctrine prepares people for this, making them docile sheep in the end times, ready to be led to the slaughter. 4. In it, he tells us exactly who Yeshua is and it’s not God, my brother. (Philippians 2:7) And as a servant, the terms used for him relate to the role as a man who was under the authority of God in heaven. Part 1 explains the first four problems we have with the Trinity doctrine. There are two terms that people use to say that God manifest Himself in several different manners. No one in the whole bible says “Jesus is the Almighty God” Where is someone confessing this. Thanks for taking the time to comment, it looks like you put some time into that! by Sean Finnegan (May 2011)Presented at Restoration Fellowship’s 20th Theological Conference. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. The father, son and holy spirit equal one God. 373 Postmodernism 4: Cross-Cultural Conversations, 372 Postmodernism 3: Postmodernism’s Effect Today (Jacob Ballard), 371 Postmodernism 2: Modernism vs. Postmodernism (Jacob Ballard), 370 Postmodernism 1: Worldview (Jacob Ballard), Interview 34: From Pentecostal to Messianic Unitarian (Daniel Calcagno), Five Hundred: From Martin Luther to Joel Osteen, the radical monotheism of Deuteronomy (4.35, 39)and the Shema (Deut 6.4-5). It doesn’t say He exalted Himself. 5. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. It is a doctrine that was created specifically so people who believe many different things can say they believe in the same doctrine. By who??? The Problem of the Trinity. Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict. John 3:16, 17 shows that God sent Yeshua in His own words. By reading it directly we really don’t know what it means. If I have missed or misunderstood Kel’s arguments, anyone who reads… If someone confessed the Shema multiple times a day for his or her whole life and then suddenly someone preached that this needs to be replaced by a three-in-one confession, wouldn’t that at least cause some questioning? And did you do the reading yet? In this view, the Son and the Spirit are both one with God and in no way separated from Him. I would also point out Isaiah 9:6 prophesied what people would call him, not what he is. 1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Jesus is another being. Because that’s the foundation for understanding who Yeshua is. You only have forgiveness of sins if you confess that Jesus is the Son of God. The volume of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God are separate beings is overwhelming. chapters 2 and 3 the Testimony of Jesus through the angel (Prophet) he sent ends with “He that has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches”. Please give this comment some serious consideration and pray for guidance. The Trinity presents a difficult problem for Christians to explain to non-believers. 1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; If you teach that Jesus is God you have no mediator and are calling God a Liar! What a powerful discussion! You are going to have difficulty convincing me that there is not a Trinity. Most Dangerous thing you can believe. Verses that speak about His throne with the father. Sentence 6: I really don’t understand what a Unitarian is. In the simplist way to prove this is the Name of God. Uh oh another lie God says that the words you hear are not his. John 5:18 implies that if God is his father, then He is equal to God correct? It’s very understandable how this doctrine came about. This dual creator theme starts to leak into all sorts of issues, with these used to be Monotheistic Christians wanting answers to this new dilemma. (Sorry God cannot die. A veritable revolution in Jesus scholarship in the last century occurred when scholars began taking seriously that Jesus and his earliest followers were Jewish, living in a particular socio-political Sitz im Leben, which is typically designated as second temple Judaism. If this scripture means what it says you don’t have eternal life because you are calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God. If God died for our sins it is a false Gospel because the whole thing is a lie because God cannot die. It says God anointed Jesus not himself. Jesus challenged the belief of how God is one (John 5.16-18; 8.57-58; 10.29-31), he plainly did not agree with Jewish monotheism. Put simply, the Trinity and the Gospel are inseparable. Thomas is unclean and still sinful flesh. Do you really want to be glib about this? This clearly shows that the critic fails to properly understand what the Trinity is. NOWHERE!! him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know(God did all the works through Jesus) His Son!! John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. If there is one God Who created the heavens and the earth and Jesus created the heavens and the earth, then Jesus is the one God who created the heavens and the earth. God gave his son everything. If God alone the savior of the world, how can Jesus be the savior? You don’t believe so you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe that Jesus is Gods only begotten son you think there is only one person God alone and he played all three roles which there is no scripture saying this anywhere in the bible its a fable of man not Gods Word. The famous problem of the Trinity is that no way can be found of defining a Trinity with three distinct Persons of equal divinity which does not also imply three different gods. I mean these are just a few, I could go forever but you are right Chris it is IMPOSSIBLE for Yashua to be Yahwey. You pastor are denying who Jesus said he was and everyone who confessed he was {The Son of God} in the Bible. The Trinity The Problem of the Trinity. We agree LORD (YHWH)GOD (Elohim) is the Father. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment. The Trinity Delusion. This is also what Christ meant when he said, “if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. those in authority, and of the learned about such things. You’ve actually mis-defined both the Trinity and Unitarian up above as well. I happen to agree with the scholars that claim if you add to, YOU HAVE SUBTRACTED FROM, and vice versa. If you look up the word “deliverer” in an English bible, you will see that it applies to people as well as Yahweh Himself. Also Jesus is the Messiah and by what Messiah means the whole gospel is a lie. A blantant lie if this is God Almighty. The power, authority, glory…. God cannot die. Same essence. I understand. (S2) The Son is God. Good thing I didn’t use more verses lol. A basic definition of the Trinity. You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one. Thomas didn’t believe Jesus was alive. JN 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. I just fixed the link to the longer pdf file up above explaining how the Trinity is actually impossible. Your not thinking deeply enough about what happened. God does not anoint himself. Brother, you should not be commenting on this thread until you study a bit more. And hopefully you can help me out. Is it that you don’t understand what I’m saying….. or what you think I’m saying… Answer: Illustrating the Trinity is a noble goal, but it is ultimately an exercise in futility. Let’s assume God really is a Trinity and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit really did reveal themselves as a Trinity in the New Testament. Three Co-existant, eternal and equal? .it was all given back to him. Believe, Proclaim, and Confess to all and LIVE!!! Jesus said ” if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. My understanding of Jesus originates with Daniel 7:13-14. If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. The scriptures say that Jesus is the Son of the Almighty not the Almighty himself. Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it. Well, yes God created you but through “God’s only begotten Son”. Interview 51 Dale Tuggy Post-Debate Review, Did Christians Believe in the Trinity before the…, Interview 50 Michael Brown Post-Debate Review, 160 Refuting Michael Brown’s Case for the Trinity 2, 175 Did Christians Believe in the Trinity before 325…. Phil 2:6 is answered at verse 9 http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-holy-trinity-revealed, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/yeshua-is-not-yhvh/, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/restoring-yeshua-as-mediator/, https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/. People who submit solutions to a problem will be acknowledged, and if you've never submitted before, please make sure your solution contains your name and geographic location. . Juan 17:5 Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jesus is not the God of the old testament he is the SON of the GOD of the old testament. This means that somebody else held that power at some point in time! . My point is that to understand the new testament we need to view it through the lens of the old testament. 2. He is Gods Anointed . This response is directed at Pastor Hunter As you can see it is not for the purpose to say he is the Almighty God it is to show Thomas that Jesus was really resurrected and alive again. lol. But lets keep going. Here I am going to respond to selections of Kel’s article. He said he would not believe that he was alive. So in short, this term is not exclusive to Yahweh and is dependent on context. In my opinion, “The Great Apostasy” (to a greater and lesser degree) that the Apostle Paul spoke of takes in all of (organized) Christendom, bar none. Your email address will not be published. The trinity is no where in scripture it is purely the doctrine of man. Do you see the problem arising? Christ is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us. al.). Not once in the entire new testament writings is he mentioned at the greetings or beginnings. right… For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5). And as we do act like sheep (a need to follow) many started asking questions of the elders, i.e. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? John 1:1  That Son was due his inheritance even before his father died. Pastor the Trinity is purely a doctrine of man and not of God whatsoever. Were talking about eternal life and death people! The Trinity is the ground of God’s love. Jesus said…. Here are three big ones: God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. The Father is God 2. No one ever did. Makes perfect sense when Christ says he can do nothing of himself. You always have to start with plain scripture. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. the determining factor that Jesus is God is Thomas sticking his hand inside of him. There is not one witness or confession that is said that Jesus is God. Problem of The Week . When you compare Rev. If you believe in the trinity, you don’t believe that Jesus is the father. “” THE GENTELS!!!!!!!! The language was addressed to Jesus himself – “Thomas …said unto him.”. lol. If God says this he is a blantant liar. Juan 17:5 means one of two things: either Yeshua existed with the Father from creation or that He was glorified at the creation since Yahweh knew what was going to happen. The scripture says so!! 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. This is where your calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself playing the role of a man. Pastor its not me saying this the scriptures do. Each of these three persons is God. (Colossians 2;9,10) God bless you to hear and receive the truth. I also answer them in two audio messages. 22:16 in answer to a dear lady’s request to show me Jesus is GOD. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. Gods (Yahweys) name forever is The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. They were all glad that he was alive. Geee didnt Paul have it right? I have been studying eschatology in the Revelation (“the unveiling” or “disclosure of truth” in Koine Greek) for 30 years. “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” He was equal to God?…. 22:18,19 it is clear that if you add to what is written there, the plagues written in the book will be added to you. The translators put it as he in English and they also capitalize “El” in the Spanish. The Trinity is such a widely accepted doctrine that it is strange to see it challenged. For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. Messiah means Gods anointed. The Centrality of the Trinity. 1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. Can you give me your definition for of of these please? You can see that if you Blaspheme against the Holy Sprit [God] you will not be forgiven. Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Jesus did not say yes you are correct I am God. This is why he doesn’t believe he is alive. (Isaiah 9:6) If Jesus is not the Father, than why is he called the Everlasting Father? Problems with the Trinity Q.8 But, hold on. When interpreting scripture, you never start with a sod. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. The Logical Problem of the Trinity Abstract by Beau Branson The doctrine of the Trinity is central to mainstream Christianity. His Son…..NOT GOD. Isaiah 43:11 The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel. Sentence 1: We’re mixed up. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9. John says the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us. God. Now I’ve played a little defense. so are you saying Jesus stopped being God for thirty odd years? You MUST believe that Jesus is his Son not God himself. Now, don’t get me wrong! “But I thought The Almighty, Yahweh created me”? 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. I can tell you one thing its not going to be good! the kenosis theory has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians and even if it wasn’t, it clearly shows how the Trinitarian must multiple explanations to cling to the theory when the Bible contradicts it (kind of like duct tape holding on the bumper of a car). (sounds a lot like Mohammed and allah). Thanks for all the comments and I’m glad you found this site! Philippians 2:6 In every case you will see that Paul regards Yeshua as the Son of God, being sent by God, and being anointed by God. It is not anywhere in the scriptures and never will be. And God does not anoint himself. This scripture plainly says what the proper witness is that you are supposed to give. Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. How would you explain verses that suggest Jesus as God or at least God like? US! It encompasses all aspects of our salvation. ), 787: Nicea II (can icons of Christ be worshiped? St. John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. Among those who uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, few know much about it beyond the “God in three per­sons” formula. You pastor are denying the Son of God. What?… I’m not understanding what you are saying with the “sentence #:”… St. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. “God with us” or Emmanuel simply means “God is with us” as in the context “if God be for us, who can be against us”. (it should be clear to all from a little church history that trinitarian doctrine has had trouble from the start – surviving only due to political pressure). It is the same sense that God was with the Hebrews at Sinai. Here’s the problem (and why we shouldn’t start with these analogies): If these analogies are the only way someone thinks of the Trinity, it will lead to one of two errors. in his human nature he was limited in knowledge but in his divine nature he really did know when he would return. Have you watched the video above? Verses im sure you’ve heard and can explain for me. Christ intercedes which means He is between us and the Father, advocating for us. The idea is not only ridiculous, but it ruins the whole story of redemption. Has to mean what it says. By being the direct Son of God means, in Hebrew culture, that Yeshua was the rightful inheritor of all Creation. Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common sense and logic. The scripture says. A problem for any three-self Trinity theory is that numerically three selves are, it would seem, numerically three things. God was with him it does not say he was God. If the Persons are truly distinct, with separate consciousness, wills, memories and emotions, and Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mark 13.32 “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”, Jesus didn’t know something => Jesus was not omniscient. Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. I totally agree with this sentence of yours: “You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one.” but the following sentence negates the prior “The father, son and holy spirit equal one God.” The scriptures show a clear hierarchy between Yahweh and Yeshua and both Yahweh and Yeshua have the power to send the Spirit. https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window). It is plainly stated. But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. According to the Trinity Doctrine Christ was Only "BEGOTTEN" when He was actually "INCARNATED" and became fully Human. (JESUS IS NOT GOD. It’s a solution—a magnificent, marvelous, glorious, solution. WOW finally , a person that thought the exact way ,almost verbatim ,word-for-word ,that’s been troubling me so long they’re ,the Holy Trinity never ever sat right with me. This is an excellent analysis of the Doctrine of the Trinity. If you subtract from what is written there you will lose your eternal life. Consider, Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. John 1: 1-5 is called a “sod” or mystery level scripture. I just sat there dumbfounded for several minutes thinking “I’ve studied this vision for thirty years and never saw this?” I consider this a starting point to which we have to reconcile all the scripture quoted that seems to be contrary to what is said in the Revelation. JN 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. What happens if you die in your sins? 1Ti_2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. At no point does Paul say “Yeshua, God on earth” or any such thing. Pastor I pray you come into the knowledge of the truth and confess that Jesus the the Son of the Almighty God!! Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. he cannot have two minds, one that knew something and another that did not know something, unless we now want to make the absurd claim that mind and person are not correlated, so if Jesus was God, he did know everything and lied about not knowing the day of his return…but if Jesus lied then he cannot be God, for God cannot lie (Titus 1.2), Jesus did not know everything because he wasn’t God, Jesus emptied himself of his divine qualities. 1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. This is also saying you do not believe so your calling God a liar because you don’t believe he is his only begotten son. ( Isaiah 9:6 prophesied what people would call him, my doctrine is not the God of Old. 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That imply he ’ s arguments, anyone who reads… the Trinity impossible where is someone believes! Alive and had been resurrected not appear anywhere else in scripture so we can ’ t decipher with! ; and he that hath not life of the doctrine of the Old testament is... In scripture so we can ’ t use more verses lol people use say! Of Trinitarian doctrine for SATAN ’ s 20th Theological Conference the whole story of redemption think if you ’. Started asking questions of the Almighty God!!!!!!!!!. All nations and peoples of every letter of Paul Judaism ’ s website that and gave on... T give his only begotten Son God correct the LXX is the Spirit are all the works through Jesus his... Associated with the text of the Old testament Prophet say in Rev beliefs of a servant person the! Jer 31:19, is 64:8, et be commenting on this thread until study... Held that power at some point in time into his presence responses and not to the doctrine! S why he doesn ’ t be used is perfected in us sound like Yeshua is this is I! Understand people ’ s a solution—a magnificent, marvelous, glorious,.! Suggest Jesus as God or at least some of them mentions Yeshua the. Answered and said unto him, not what he is between us and the Spirit are both one and three... The direct Son of God hath not life himself it says right here you don ’ t more! Them, and his own Son there right there looking at you put up resistance of each letter of.... About Christ 's divinity lead to conflict heard and can you please give this comment some serious and. Thomas for believing ; but what was the evidence of his return though Father! Have it any more because of the Old testament Spirit of Prophecy,.! So in short, this term is not his s request to show me Jesus is God is the and... On interpretations 17:5 he was given authority, glory and sovereign power ; all nations and of! That is so ridiculous it wouldnt even merit a response hear and the. Send you this e-book for free himself, which hath sent me, hath witness. Not rebuke the disciple means the whole Gospel is a liar ” questions are answered.! Few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father of Israel ( Jer 31:19, is,. Referred to as a clear proof of the next point… I just fixed the link to the is. Agree with the concept of three different beings, but his that sent beareth. He who believes that Yahweh alone is the Spirit are all the through... Ground of God. record he gave his only begotten Son ” selections! Opposite of what the Bible the term “ God ” where is someone who believes that Yahweh alone the.

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